NCA Experiences & BigLaw Transcript

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NCA EXPERIENCES & BIGLAW 

DATE: JANUARY 16TH, 2025

TIME: 7:00 PM – 8:00 PM EST

LOCATION: ONLINE VIA ZOOM

Yaman:  ٱلسَّلَامُ عَلَيْكُمْ (Asalamo Alaykom) Everyone. My name is Yaman Midani and I wanted to thank you all for joining us today. We are going to be starting now. To make the most of this event, I would encourage you all to join with your cameras on. Our speakers would love to see who they are talking to, and it is a great chance to connect and network with other attendees. We are recording the session; however, we will only be using the audio portion of the recording just for those who are unable to join us here today. If you have any questions at any point, feel free to post them in the chat for our Q&A session at the end. I am going to ask our speakers today to introduce themselves and answer the question: “Share one thing you wish more people understood about your area of expertise”. Isa, would you like to start? 

Isa: Sure, I guess I am being put on the spot first! My name is Isa Dookie. I suppose I could speak a little bit more about myself as we go along, but to answer the first question: what I wish people knew about my practice area. First of all, my practice area is construction law. I wish people knew it wasn't as boring as they think it might be. 

Yaman: Okay. Thank you so much for sharing that. Jaanam, would you like to go next? 

Jaanam: Yeah. Hi, everyone. My name is Jaanam, and I'm a corporate lawyer at Gowling. Something I wish more people knew about corporate law is that it's not always as glamorous as it seems. I feel like people think that all corporate lawyers do is close million dollar deals and negotiate really contentious matters. And, while that is true and it does have a glamorous aspect, there are so many different aspects like it can be advisory, it can be investigative, it can be compliance. No two days look the same. So, it's a very diverse practice area. 

Yaman: Thank you so much. Saba, would you like to go next?

Saba: Hi Everyone! Happy to be here and good to meet you virtually. One thing that I'll share is I used to practice law, and now I no longer do. So just in legal talent, I think a lot of people think I either do interviews all day long or I plan events. I wish that was my job. It's not all the time. There's a bunch of other stuff, but I still think it's fun and I am still happy doing it. 

Yaman: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm going to ask you all to just talk a bit about your backgrounds, and I'm going to go in alphabetical order again. So, Isa you're going to be up first. I'm sorry about that. 

Isa: So, is this how this is going to go? All right. To keep things short because there is a lot to be said, I began my career as an engineer. I didn't go into law directly. So, I'm a late start as it comes to law. I started as an engineer, and while I was working as an engineer, I decided, for God knows what reason, to study law on the side. Eventually, to complete my qualification as a lawyer, I had to go to England. I was called to the bar in England. Then I went back to Trinidad and Tobago, which is where I'm from. Hope you can tell from the accent. I worked in Trinidad in litigation for about 3 years, in a litigation boutique firm. I was doing everything from high court to appellate up to the Privy Council. Then I came to Canada at the beginning of 2023. I think we'll get to talking about the NCAs and stuff. I did my NCAs before even coming to Canada. When I came to Canada, I started working immediately in-house. Not as a lawyer, of course, because I wasn't licenced as a lawyer in Canada at that point. I was working as a contract manager but doing everything that a lawyer would do. I was working in-house in an engineering company. I was able to article there. I did the process of taking the bar exams. And then I was called to the Canadian bar at the beginning of 2024. After I was called. I put some feelers out and got an interview at the firm that I'm currently at, which is Glaholt Bowles LLP. It went well, and since June of 2024, I've been working in this firm. 

Yaman:  Thank you so much for sharing that. Jaanam? 

Jaanam: I moved to Canada in 2019 from Nigeria. And like Isa, I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer. So, I went to law school at the age of 18. Then, when I moved to Canada, I did my master's from Osgoode, did my NCAs, and then I was really lucky that the year I moved here was the first time the NCA network allowed internationally trained lawyers to go through the OCI process. Through that process, I summered and articled at Gowling, and I've been here for three years since then. 

Yaman: Amazing. Thank you so much! Saba? 

Saba: So, I've had a bit of a different path. I'll try to summarize it as quickly as possible. Essentially, I also thought that I wanted to be a lawyer for a really long time. And so, I did that. I went to Osgoode for law school, and then I summered and articled at Norton Rose Fulbright, where I am now. I was hired back into the business group there and started out doing public and private M&A, private equity, and then transitioned into tech, cybersecurity and privacy matters. A bit into my practice, I decided I wanted to switch. This was during Covid when, you know, we all had a lot of time to introspect and possibly even overthink our decisions. I decided I wanted to go into legal talent. I left to go do that at another firm because at the time there were no such opportunities available at Norton Rose. So, I did that at another firm for about two and a half years. Then, about a year ago, I rejoined Norton Rose in my current capacity in legal talent. So, what I do now is I oversee our student programs in both Toronto and Ottawa, and I also oversee our efforts with respect to lateral associate recruitment. So, a bit of a non-linear path. But, you know, we all get to where we are, I guess somehow. 

Yaman: Thank you so much for sharing that. Now, let's talk about NCA experiences. So, Isa, I'm going to start with you again. Can you tell us about your experiences writing the NCA?

Isa: So, I mean it wasn't that long ago. It was in 2022. The first thing that I mentioned before was that I did two of my NCAs before coming to Canada. I think for lots of people who do the NCAs this is not necessarily the most usual thing, but I think it was important. One of the things that I would recommend to anyone who's going through that process is that you really need to map out your deadlines. Working back from when you want an article and when you expect to be called. There are lots of different things that need to happen in that time. So, I had done that, and I was looking for the shortest path to being called in Canada. What that meant for me was taking the NCA exams when I was still working in that litigation firm in Trinidad. So, I took, I think, 2 exams every 2 months or so. It wasn't too difficult to do. I think, you know, the exams themselves, they aren't very difficult. I mean, different people have different experiences, but by and large, most of the people I've spoken to who have done the NCAs have agreed on that. As compared to the Bar, lots of people find the Bar to be much more challenging. The NCAs themselves, because it's just merely a pass-fail type of exam and open book (which is different from the type of exams that most of us would have had to face in the English system), was not that difficult. But I do think it is an opportunity to learn the things that a student who would have gone through the Canadian JD would have had the opportunity to learn over the course of 3 years. So, it is your opportunity. One of the questions that was raised before was whether I would recommend using any of those summaries that you have for studying for the NCAs. Lots of people swear by that. My personal opinion on that is if you use those summaries, you sell yourself short because when you are doing the NCAs, that is your opportunity to get a good foundation. And if you don't take the time to build that foundation, then you may find yourself sort of wanting later on. Of course, different people have different experiences. I know people who have used the summaries, did all five exams in one sitting, and they were good to go, but that's my experience. 

Yaman: Okay. Thank you so much for that! And just a follow up question: You said that you wrote an exam every two months. Did it take you two months to study per exam? 

Isa: Well, at the time I was working, so - no. I think two months, if you're dedicated to a study, is a lot of time. The syllabi for those NCA exams have some body to them. It is substantial, that's one way to put it. With that said, from what I recall, the time that I did the exams, I think if you gave yourself one week of dedicated study for one of those exams, that might be enough time to cover it. Again, though, that will vary depending on the person's background, what you're already familiar with, how good you are taking certain types of exams. So, it varies. But it definitely didn't take me two months of study to prepare for those exams. It was just because of the fact that I was working. I think lots of other people have done similar. 

Yaman: Okay, thank you so much for that. Jaanam, would you like to talk about your experiences writing the NCA? 

Jaanam: Sure. So, I did my master's in international business law at Osgoode in 2019. As part of my master's, I could do two of my NCAs. So, I chose to do criminal and admin through Osgoode. And the reason for that is because both of them are like really, really large. There's a lot to study. So, I felt like doing them in school and having slides was so much easier. I did the rest of my NCAs on my own, studied for them using NCA notes. So, I think I have a little bit of a different approach. For me, I felt like NCAs was just a way to kind of convert my existing law degree into a Canadian version of a law degree or a Canadian accepted law degree. And so, I didn't really think of it as like building my foundation. I thought of it more as just, you know, I have to do this so that my LLB or JD is recognized here. I felt that the NCA notes, I think I used Vanessa's notes if I'm not mistaken, they were so concise. They had everything I needed to know. They were pretty easy to study because I was doing it alongside my masters for the most part. So, I think with dedicated weekends and then a few hours during the week, I was able to study just fine. I do think the exams are somewhat easy, and I say that because you only need to pass. You don't really need to get like an 80% or 100% and it's open book. So, if you're coming from a common law country, I feel like it's the same principles. I did law school in the UK and for me it was really the same principles. And then you're kind of just learning the Canadian case law. It is fairly easy to pass, but I think that everyone needs to do what works best for them. Some people are more used to open book exam than others. Some people are great at using textbooks. I have a bunch of friends that actually bought the textbooks and studied. That couldn't be me. But I just wanted a simple way to, you know, be done with my NCAs, and that worked out fine. 

Yaman: Okay, I am going to ask if you have the link to the course to the notes that you mentioned just so that if anybody else wants to make use of that resource, they have the ability to do so. So, one of the questions that we had from the attendees was: “How can you convincingly show your interest in a practice area?” I know that this is not NCA related, but would you mind quickly, uh, speaking about that? 

Jaanam: Sure. So, for me, when I went to law school, I was actually very social justice focused. I became a lawyer to make the world a better place. And now I'm here. So, during my whole time at law school, I didn't take a single corporate or a single commercial law course. Every internship that I did was social justice focused. And so, when I came here, I did do my master's in international business law, and that's the main way I was able to demonstrate that I'm interested in business. Gowling has a little bit of a different summer program. You have to choose between business IP and litigation. And so, I really had to demonstrate that my interest was in corporate. But, I think that I also was able to like, leverage some of my experience of working in retail. I was just a sales associate, but I was very curious about the business in general, and I was able to talk about that in my interviews. And I think for the most part, just from my experience, no one is really looking for like, you know, evidence or proof or substantive demonstration that you're interested in a particular area of law. I think you do need to demonstrate a passion, and you need to be able to speak as to where that passion comes from. Especially if you can align it with what that particular firm does. I think that's kind of like the winning formula in my mind. I don't really think that, you know, you have to have certain courses or certain experience to be able to work in that particular practice area. 

Yaman: Okay, and I know that you want to Osgoode after, but can you give us a general timeline of, like, finishing law school? Between finishing law school and then writing your NCAs, what did that timeline look like?

Jaanam: So, my journey is a little bit different because I actually finished law school in the UK, went back to Nigeria, and I actually took a break from law entirely when I was saving up to move here. So, I have a little bit of a break there. And then I came here and did my master's and in that same year I did my NCAs. So, I really think that it's beneficial to do your NCAs as close as close as possible after law school, just because you're kind of already in that student mode. A lot of the material might be the same. And as I said before, I don't think they're too difficult. 

Yaman: Okay. Amazing. Thank you so much. Saba, can you please tell us what successful applications from an NCA candidate would look like for you? 

Saba: Yeah, sure. I will preface this by saying, you know, this is just my perspective. Obviously, other talent directors at different firms may have different preferences. I haven't gone on the NCA journey myself, but I am really sympathetic to that path just because in seeing and interviewing, probably like hundreds of NCA candidates, and speaking to them, I really do think that the path to get to big law, as is the title of this talk tonight, it is tough. And I think part of that is because there's such an information imbalance for NCA candidates. That, I've always known and that I'm always sympathetic to. I always review applications through that lens. To be more specific, I think, you know, NCA candidates, in my mind, are often incredibly qualified, just because they have experience elsewhere. So, I see that in their resume or in their cover letter or, you know, in their application in general. So, one thing that I think a lot of NCA candidates do in order to support that experience is they include, like certificates and like hundreds of pages of documents to support their application, which I think is great. Uh, you know, I'm not sure how far that will go for them in some processes, just because, it's more like quality versus quantity at some point. So, while I know that a lot of applicants are incredibly qualified, I think summarizing those in the actual like cover letter or resume shows two things. One, that you've thought about what you want to include, how it applies to the firm that you're applying to. And being concise, I think, is one of the key skills in this profession generally. So rather than doing almost, I mean this in a kind way, but like a document dump in an application, but rather like summarizing it in a resume, I always find really helpful. And it does not just detract from the qualifications at all. The other thing that I love seeing, um, is obviously, you know, NCA candidates have their degrees from a variety of different institutions, as we've heard tonight. And, this is pretty specific, but the transcript break down is different for different institutions. Some of them, you know, we're all pretty familiar with, especially the ones in the UK, just because you've seen transcripts from those schools a lot. But some of them I, for example, am less familiar with. So, to the extent that I'm less familiar with them, what I often do, just because transcripts are an important part of the application, is I literally Google “transcript breakdown” of so-and-so school. And so, I try to figure it out. Some NCA candidates include a chart. And it could be a chart that they've made themselves, obviously based on legitimate facts, based on their school of like how an A translates into like an A in the Canadian system. And I find that so incredibly helpful. It just makes my job a lot easier, and it makes my review honestly a bit more enjoyable. But on a larger scale, I think it just shows thoughtfulness and initiative, and I just love seeing that. So, it's a small thing, I think, in my view. But it's all about putting your best foot forward when you're submitting an application because unfortunately, the process can be tough. Because we're not seeing the person in real life, and really the only impression they can make is on a paper. And I understand that that's difficult. But I think doing things like that and really being thoughtful really does go a long way. I think there are other accreditation, um, organizations like WES, I understand, like does a transcript equivalency. But I think if you do that yourself or if you get that, that's fine. But always think about like, if I'm reviewing this application, how can I make that person's job a little bit easier in terms of understanding my narrative and how it is that I got here? Those are pretty specific. And then beyond that, and this doesn't necessarily apply to just NCA candidates - but any candidate, on the cover letter, I always tell people I'll read your resume like that's a separate thing, but really use that space in the cover letter, which is so limited, as strategically as possible. And by that, I mean choose a couple items that are really specific to you and tell me about those. They could be on your resume, or they could be like almost like obscure things on your resume. But I don't need a summary of your resume on your cover letter, but I just I want to know what your story is. And to Jaanam’s point earlier about, you know, articulating what it is that you could be interested in, maybe that's a space where you could tell me what you're interested in, or maybe you can tell me that you're actually really open to what it is your career may look like. Because, as I said, I'm no stranger to non-linear career paths. I think the general theme is just thoughtfulness in an application, and, you know, really seeing it from, from a different lens. And what could really help with that is when you're putting together your application, give yourself some time, and have it proofed by someone else, or maybe even two other people, three other people, and see how they perceive it. Especially through the lens of someone who doesn't know you, right, and does it say what it is that you want to say about yourself? Does it market yourself to the degree that you deserve to be marketed? 

Yaman: Thank you so much. That was very valuable information. One of the questions we got from our guests today was, “Should NCA candidates apply for 1L or 2L recruits?” 

Saba: Yeah. So, it's entirely up to you, but a couple of things. So, for example, Norton Rose, at least in Toronto and Ottawa, we don't participate in the 1L recruit or the articling recruit. Our main pipeline of recruitment is really through the 2L recruit. And that's because we really want to make long term decisions and our expectation, while other things can come up (like clerkship opportunities or whatever - which we support our students in) is that those who summer with us will come back to article with us. And, depending on performance and firm needs, we'll eventually make it as associates and then hopefully as partners. Right. So, we really try to make long term decisions. In terms of 1L or 2L, I think it really does depend on your individual preference. Obviously if you're applying for the 1 L summer role, you have to spend two summers with the firm before you're eligible to article. I think, and I'm sorry if I'm jumping ahead and this may be one of the questions because I think I saw it, but, articling at a firm is also really valuable experience. I understand that NCA candidates have practice experience elsewhere, but a lot of firms, including our own, like our students to article with us just because while we appreciate the value that you bring as an NCA candidate with your foreign qualifications and your foreign job experience, getting to know a firm from the ground up and really growing up at a firm from a legal perspective is a different experience. So, I think that's entirely personal, and it really just depends on where you want to be in your career and how quickly you want to progress. And I know that's very vague and probably not that helpful, but I don't think I personally have a preference. I've done legal talent at a firm in which we did participate in the 1L recruit and also considered NCA candidates there as well. So, I don't think there's, you know, from my perspective, an opportune time. It just really depends on the candidate and where they are in both their personal and professional life. 

Yaman: Thank you so much for that. And, um, another question we had is: “What is a common mistake ITL’s usually make during interviews?”

Saba: I don't think it's necessarily specific to ITL candidates, but I think one thing that I see a lot of candidates do is sometimes - it's clear when you're giving someone an answer because you think it's what they want to hear. I think that the advice is to just be as genuine as possible. If that means that maybe you don't apply as broadly because maybe you're not interested in the firm that does that type of work, then I think maybe you have to make those decisions early on and apply to firms that you're genuinely interested in, for a few reasons. One, because I think it's not about what you've done experience wise, because -- like working in retail, for example, working in construction, for example, like you can learn such valuable and transferable skills that still, I think, are important in this profession. So, I never look for someone who has legal experience elsewhere, but I look for someone, whether they're an NCA candidate or not, whether they have transferable skills. So, I think it's important to one - be honest with yourself: what is it that you're really interested in? Corporate law, while you may be open to different career paths, like maybe that's just not a place where you want to be. For example, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. I knew, though, that I just didn't want to do criminal law. I have the utmost respect for people who do it. I personally just can't stomach it. So, I just didn't apply to those firms just because I couldn't. I just didn't even know how to answer their questions. And so, I think, you know, you have to go into those interviews expecting that people will look for a kind of authenticity in your answers when they’re asking questions. And they're trained on how to be able to detect whether or not you're being authentic or not in those answers. Again, that's because we always are looking to make long term hires. And if we sense that, maybe it's not right for you, we don't want to waste anyone's time. And so, it's just not successful for either party. And the other thing is, you know, I think NCA candidates specifically should leverage the experience that they've had. I think some candidates shy away from speaking about their experience abroad or elsewhere just because they want to be seen on an equal playing field as their JD counterparts. I don't think that's necessarily the right approach. I think having foreign experience is an asset. And so speaking to maybe like the deals you've worked on in other countries, or the different process that was required of you to come up in those systems, speak to your resilience and how difficult it must be to almost start from scratch in a system that honestly, the odds are stacked against you in some ways and in a system that's not easy. So, use those experiences to show your resiliency and your strength in that way. 

Yaman: Thank you so much! We are going to go through some questions now that we've gotten from the audience. And all three of you can discuss the answers if you're comfortable doing so. The first question, and Isa I'm going to start with you again: Did you article before or after the bar exam, and which order would you recommend?

Isa: So, I think this is going to be another one of those things that is going to be very specific to each person. In my case, I did one of the bar exams - no, I did both while articling and that worked out fine for me. I didn't do both of my exams in the same sitting, which made it easier. If you are trying to do both exams in the same sitting and you are articling, depending on how heavy your articling program is, it could get difficult. But, of course, if you started preparing for those exams long before and you've put the time in, you can probably handle it. So, I think it's one of those things that really depends on the person. My experience was that the Bar materials weren't necessarily difficult, but they were heavy and quite voluminous. And it takes time. And, you know, I think perhaps, and if there are any Canadian students here who have gone through the JD program they can say, but I feel if you've gone through the JD, the three years of the JD program, to some extent, you've had some prep for the bar exam. But if you're coming from the outside, yes, it may be the same principles, you know, in civil procedure, it's the same principles generally, but the specifics of each one of those areas that you're going to be examined on in the bar exam - you have to learn it. And for me, there's no way around that but reading the materials, and that takes time because we're talking about 2000 pages of materials. So, it's going to depend on how heavy your articling is. For people who I've spoken to who have the option to possibly do the exam before they start articling, or before they even start applying, I tend to encourage them to do that because I feel as though that adds some legitimacy to the application. This is something that Saba would probably be able to speak better to. But that's the way I see it, at least, because at least you've shown that you've not just passed the NCA exams, just as any of the other students, but you're able to pass the bar exams just fine too, right? And it may sound very trivial, but I think, every step of the way, what you're dealing with as a foreign student or foreign candidate is removing those doubts. And some of the doubts, I would think, are quite natural. You know, you're applying to someplace where they don't know anything about you. They probably don't know anything about the program that you've studied before. They don't know anything about the experience that you've had before. So, you have to take small steps to prove yourself, um, or to show that you are on a level playing field. I feel as though if you have the opportunity to do the bar exams before applying, maybe it's something that you can add to that list of things that show that you are ready for this. 

Yaman: Okay, thank you so much!  Jaanam, would you like to go next? 

Jaanam: Sure. I wrote my bar exams before articling. I was working as a law clerk because I had a gap between my summer and articling. I do think that it was helpful just from, like, an information perspective. I think that the bar materials cover a lot of information, and it gives you a very good overview, just basically and generally about all the areas of law, right? Like I had to read criminal law even though I don't practice in criminal. I do think that, and maybe this is corporate specific, it is so important to know different areas of law. Like, I have had to step in on insolvency and bankruptcy matters. And it's not something that I practice in, but I've used my Bar materials to be like, wait - what is the difference between like the CCA and the BIA, things like that. I think it's actually a really good resource, or even just to hear something or work on something and it not being completely foreign to you, but thinking like, okay, I've read this somewhere. I know I can find more information here. I can refer to it. I think even from like a practice management perspective, like I didn't know much about, like the rules of professional conduct and ethics when I was doing my summer. Not to say that it like advantaged or disadvantaged me in any way, but I think when you're an articling student and you're there for ten months, you want to understand the way things work. You want to make sure you're developing good practice management tips. You want to make sure you're docketing right. So, I think just from that lens, it was helpful to have my bar exams done. And I think I'll defer to Saba on whether it makes sense, like how it affects your application just because I think I've seen it go both ways. I know of so many people that have articled while writing their Bar exams, and I know a lot of people that have done it before and some that have done it after. And I assume that it's better to do it before, just so that your eligibility is in check if a firm wants to hire you back, they know that - other than articling - that you've met all the other requirements. So, I think it would work in your favor. 

Yaman: Thank you so much! Saba? 

Saba: Sure. It's hard, right? Because I understand that NCA candidates have different paths and they're all on different timelines. I agree with you both - I think, you know, writing it before your articling term is always ideal, not necessarily from an eligibility perspective just because, you know, we'll support our students if they need to write during their articling term. And with respect to workload or if they need time off, I can manage that with them. But it's more from the student's own experience while they're articling, especially while they're summering. I completely understand that articling seems like kind of a slog. I've been through it. Um, it's like ten months - kind of seems like a long time. It goes by so quickly, though, and both the summering and the articling terms are times where students really have to make a good impression. So having written the bar exam and hopefully having passed it beforehand is just ideal, just because it allows the students to hit the ground running when they start, especially when they article, and they don't have to worry about anything else. I think articling - we try so hard to support students so that they don't find it stressful. I think they inevitably find it stressful, as did I when I was articling, so I think that's just easier said than done. So just for the simple fact of having one less thing on your to do list to worry about, I always encourage people to just kind of get it out of the way beforehand. No one likes writing the Bar exam. Let's be honest, it's horrendous. That being said, you know, NCA candidates are all on different timelines. So, if you know, it happens such that you have to write it during the articling or just through some other timeline, then that's something that you should work out with your firm. And I think if it's a place that supports its people, which, you know, I'm sure a lot of places are, then you'll figure out some sort of arrangement. So that's with the Bar. I'm not sure if, you know, you also want to talk about the NCA exams themselves, to the extent that anyone's wondering about that, like the five NCA exams. I also don't have a preference if someone's written it, or they haven't. Like, I understand that some people, um, may be applying to summer jobs, but maybe still haven't passed all five NCA exams. The thing is, if you're applying for a 2L summer role, for example, by the time you go through the summer and that year passes between summer and when you begin articling, and another ten months passes when you finish articling, and are eligible to be licensed in Ontario, I'm sure in that time, which is almost a two year period, gives those candidates enough time to pass those five exams. So, when applying for summer roles, I don't think you even have to finish those five NCA exams and you'll still have time to do them. I know that second part wasn't part of the question, but I just wanted to get it out of the way. 

Yaman: Oh, it was very valuable, thank you so much! We do have a question: “What is more favorable to a firm? The first option: an NCA candidate awaiting NCA certification with 1 to 2 years of LAA experience one year before certified for articles. Or the second option: an NCA certified candidate with no LAA experience, ready for articles?” I'm not sure if you can see that in the chat. 

Saba: I can, um, can you just clarify what you mean by LAA experience? 

Yaman: To be honest, I'm not sure. 

Saba: Okay, because I'm like, “do I not know this? Should I know it?” 

Isa: I think I had the same question because I'm not sure. 

Saba: Okay.

Jaanam: I think it's legal admin assistant. 

Isa: Jaanam to the rescue. 

Saba: Legal admin assistant. Okay, perfect. Thank you. Um. Thanks, Jaanam. Um, I'm happy to take this first. So again, when I - I love all the answers in the chat. Um, so when I'm looking for resumes, I don't look for someone who's had legal experience at all. As I mentioned, some roles, like I think Jaanam you mentioned you worked in retail, some roles are just like really impressive to me just because I think they're really tough in and of itself, right? Like working in a retail job is not an easy experience. Again, I just keep using these examples because they're top of mind. But like working in construction is not an easy experience. So personally, I never look for someone who has, you know, had physical presence in a law firm, but rather I look for someone who has transferable experience from any job that they may have had. So, all that to say, I don't necessarily look for that type of experience. Um, I just look for someone who has transferable experience, by which I mean, like, you know, the ability to work hard or the ability to show resilience in some sort of way. Those are all soft skills. The reason I say that is because I'm confident in our curriculum. When we train our students, both in the summer term and in the articling term. And so, while I appreciate that NCA candidates may come on day one, having reviewed and even negotiated deals, that's not the expectation. And we want all of our students to be on a level playing field. I think that's definitely an advantage. But those things you learn on the job, um, and in combination with, you know, the educational curriculum that we have and what they see day to day on the job, I'm confident that they'll learn those skills. So, I don't look for that experience. And as long as you're just, you know, eager and willing to learn, that's really all I look for, to be honest. 

Yaman: Thank you so much. Um, so, Isa and Jaanam, a question for you guys: “How have you developed your knowledge of the commercial activity in your fields? How do you stay up to date with commercial awareness?”  Whoever would like to go first...

Isa: I'll let Jaanam go first, because I've been having to go through this every time. 

Yaman: Okay. Haha, sorry. 

Jaanam: I just want to clarify. Is it just like how I stay up to date with what's going on in the corporate world in general? 

Yaman: Uh, yeah. 

Jaanam: So we have a lot of sessions, like lunch and learns for associates at our firm where we talk about any new developments or anything exciting that has happened in the world that might have an impact on our practice. I think for anyone interested in corporate law, practical law is a great resource. It really summarizes a lot of things from a practical perspective and also gives you tips when it comes to like drafting, reviewing checklists. I think that's a great resource. And then also being a part of organizations like the Canadian Bar Association, the Ontario Bar Association, there are so many CPD events that I think do a great job of giving you a one hour refresher or, you know, like to hear a discussion by a panel on, like, what's really going on. Lexology is another great way to stay up to date with what's happening. And you can kind of set alerts for practice areas that you're interested in. And that will also link you to any firm that has put out any article on those topics. Recently, podcasts have become a big thing. I feel like a lot of law firms have invested in having podcasts, and I do have a few that I think do a good job of keeping it short and sweet, but like touching on all the important things you want to hear about. So, I think those are like my main ones. 

Yaman: Thank you so much! Isa? 

Isa: I think Jaanam really covered it. Maybe I could tackle the question from a different angle, instead of  “when you're practicing, how do you keep up.” Because I think once you're in the field and you've been called to the bar, there are lots of, you know, there are lots of CPD programs out there that help you to keep up. But then there are different things that you could do on your own, which Jaanam mentioned. The angle I would address is how do you get your feet wet in a particular practice area before you even enter, when you're new to the Canadian market? Uh, I think there are a few ways to do that. One is the same CPD programs that are prepared for lawyers who are practicing in the areas. They usually open, albeit quite expensive. Right. But if you can afford it, and there are free events, so when there are free events, it's good advice to take advantage of those. I think attending those events and attending those type of CPD programs, they help you to get a handle on what is relevant and what is important. Otherwise, you know, every practice area is an ocean. And if you just dive into it, you have no idea what's important, what's relevant to the market at this point, what's not. So, I think that is one of the best roads that you could take. The other thing is that, you know, recently you find that a lot of firms and, and a lot of practitioners, they post regularly, whether it's on their website or whether it's on LinkedIn. If you know that there are practitioners who are practicing in the area of law that you would want to practice in, it makes a lot of sense to follow them on those social media platforms. Follow the post, engage if you can, intelligently. At the very least - read, see what they're talking about and read the cases that they bring up. I think those are two steps or two methods you can use to make yourself familiar, in Canada, with the practice area that you're looking at. 

Yaman: Thank you so much. That's very helpful! So, one of our guests has gone through the NCA process and just wanted to offer some advice. Um, his name is Mustafa Jilani. Mustafa, would you be able to come on camera? 

Mustafa: Can you hear me? See me? 

Yaman: Yes. So, you mentioned that you had some advice that you wanted to address. 

Mustafa: Yeah. So just by way of introduction, Asalamo Alaykom guys. So, I am a 2013 call. So, I've been in practice for over a decade. The reason why I joined this call is because I actually went through this process over a decade ago, and I was curious to see how it's evolved since that time. So just, uh, you know, in terms of where I currently work, I'm currently in house at a large bank. So, I have, uh, you know, gone up the ladder, you can say. I started off in the NCA process, and, uh, I'm not sure how much, uh, you know, has changed, but when I started, I realized it's very difficult for internationally trained lawyers. I came from the US. Uh, I used to practice in Chicago before. Uh, it's very difficult for someone who's gone through the NCA process to break into the system here, because the way the large firms here work is through the OCI process and on campus interviews and the 1L, 2L, 3L process. Whereas if you're coming in from the outside, it's kind of very hard to plug into that process. So, um, ten years ago there were no networks like this that existed. And when I was trying to figure this out, I realized unless you're already in the system from, as Saba said 2L, uh, it's very difficult for a lawyer that's already qualified to come in and say, I'd like to apply as a 1st year associate. Right. And. especially the large firms - they don't even entertain you. So eventually, you know, what ends up happening and the reason why I'm speaking is, because I wanted to give you a ray of hope. So, I actually started at a small firm. Uh, eventually working my way up, uh, in the small firm. Uh, if any of you guys know Faisal Kutti. Uh, he used to be my partner. Um, so I worked my way up. We worked, um, you know, in Toronto together. And then I eventually transitioned out to an opportunity with a large firm, because after about 7 years in practice, the large firms, once you have enough experience, once again, open up for you as an opportunity whereby they're open to cross lateral hires. Right. So, if you come in with a book of clients or if you come in with enough experience under your belt, they would then entertain you as a junior lawyer if you missed that initial opportunity to get in. Unfortunately, for the first 3 or 4 years, at least from my experience, I found that the large firms will not entertain you as much because you're not really bringing anything to their table. Whereas once you get enough experience, you can knock on their doors again - if that's where you really want to go. And then you can basically impress them and get in. And so, I did work for a large regional firm as well. Um, after a couple of years, I realized that's not my cup of tea as well. And I realized why people would say the large-firm life is not for everyone. But it was definitely an experience. I took that experience and then I jumped in-house. Uh, so I currently work in-house at RBC. Uh, so I just wanted to give you that ray of hope that the NCA process may not be straightforward, but eventually, as long as you keep knocking at the door and you keep pushing forward, you'll get where you want to get to. So, I just wanted to give you guys that, uh, ray of hope. There is a chance for NCA candidates to go pretty high up. 

Yaman: Thank you so much Mustafa, we appreciate that. A question for our speakers: “What would you recommend we do to stand out ahead of the Toronto recruits?” Saba, would you like to go first with this one? 

Saba: Sure. So in addition to the things I mentioned earlier, like that chart that I talked about with the transcripts or, kind of leveraging the experience that you have, I'm not sure if there's really anything else. Um, I will say again, all of this is specific to me, maybe specific to the firm that I've grown up at. So, I just want to put that out there. But, like, we certainly don't have a one size fits all approach. So, we look at your cover letter and your resume and your transcripts, but, I never look and I'm like, “this person has this many years of experience in so and so role”. So, I think that's a tough question to answer. I really do think and I'm sorry if this is vague, but I just want to be accurate. The qualities that we really look for at that stage are really soft skills. And they're like your work ethic and your teamwork abilities. I think this is a huge one. And again, I think people mistakenly think that like being on a sports team is irrelevant. But it's not. If you've spent some time, maybe you were like a professional, I don't know, hockey player, or a professional soccer player, that’s important, right? And that shows something. So, at least from my perspective, I wouldn't look to demonstrate that I've spent some time physically at a law firm when I started as a summer student, recognizing that I didn't go through this process. I'd never stepped foot in a law firm before, and I'm the first lawyer in my family. I still am the first lawyer in my family, even though I don't practice. Um, and so I don't think anyone should go into it thinking that, um, you know, people in legal talent are expecting a certain outline of what it is that you have to submit. It also goes to the point that I mentioned earlier about authenticity. Your experience is your experience. You're not going to be able to change it. The things that you've been involved in are part of your narrative. And so, it really becomes how you market yourself and how you market yourself is how you articulate the soft skills that you've learned through those experiences. 

Yaman: Thank you. Saba. So, Isa, I'm going to change the question for you a bit and ask: “What did you do to stand out when you were applying in Canada?” Sorry! I put you on the spot!

Isa: What did I do to stand out? I think in order to give an answer that might be beneficial for other people, each person needs to figure out what is their story, and then they need to figure out how to communicate that story. Because everyone has a story. Everyone has something that's compelling about them, that if they were able to communicate that, it would it would resonate with the right firm or employer. Not necessarily a firm, but with the right employer. I think that is the key. You know, in my case, my story was, coming from a different career going through all of the different detours that I took in life. All of that formed part of my story and made for a compelling discussion whenever I had to sit before someone or met anyone in my interviews, for example. It's funny that, you know, I thought I would have nothing to add to Saba’s comments until she mentioned that point about the sports. So, something that was funny in my interview with the firm I am currently in is, on my resume, just at the bottom, there's like a one word mention of playing football (what the world knows as football, but people in North America call soccer, right?). So there was a mention of that on my resume, and that's something that the name partner asked me about very apologetically. He just said, “okay, you know, if it's okay, could I ask about that?” And we had a discussion about that. And, you know, some weeks later, at a social event, I was talking to him, and he said that my answer on that question stood out to him. So, it's strange, sometimes it's just about having a compelling story and being able to communicate something that you're passionate about and that I think reflects on your personality, reflects on whether people think they can work with you. Because I think if you're in an interview, if you've gotten to the point of being physically before someone, or electronically, and having a discussion, they sort of already think that you can do the job based on your credentials, but they want to see who you are and that's the opportunity that you then have to communicate your story and make like real, authentic human connections, whether you get the job or not. I think it's important to make that human connection. So, I don't know if that answers the question really, but I hope that contributes in some way. 

Yaman: No, it does answer. Thank you so much. Um, Jaanam, I'm going to ask you the same question, and then we're going to conclude. “How did you leverage your background to stand out when you were being recruited?”

Jaanam: Okay. I agree with and echo everything that Saba and Isa said, because I think it's so true. I think that your cover letter has to tell your story. I spent, I want to say, 6 to 8 weeks on the first draft of my cover letter, and I had everyone I know read it. That's just because I come from a place, a country where people care about, like your actual substantive experience. Nobody really cares what your personality is like. So, when I was going through this process and everyone was like, “don't be afraid to put your personality”, I'm like: nobody cares what I enjoy doing in my spare time, or nobody cares about all the things that are not lawyerly about me. And I was so wrong. I think that even in a lot of my interviews and I did 8 OCI’s, and in almost all of them, I talked about my hobbies and my interest section, the most of my work experience that I ended up discussing was my retail experience. That was what people cared most about, and that's because I was doing things like, you know, dealing with clients, dealing with customer complaints. At the end of the day, being a lawyer is all about service. You service your clients. You can do that whether you're working in retail, whether you're working in food. I don't want to repeat a lot of things that the other people have said. And I'm also really mindful of the time, but I think that it's also important to think about your audience. I know a lot of times when NCA candidates send in their applications, it’s very, very like substantive legal stuff. I closed all these deals. I argued at the Supreme Court, and that's amazing. Like that is your story and you should be proud of what you've done. But bear in mind, most of these people have an undergrad and a law degree. They haven't worked. A lot of the stuff you do as a summer student can be administrative or basic, because it is supposed to be like your first experience at a law firm, and so sometimes you can really disadvantage yourself if you are like “I am so qualified, I have done a lot of these things”. Because it is like okay you are so amazing, find a place that is going to give you articling or that is going to hire you as an associate because we just dint think that this summer position is made for someone like you. So, I think it’s important to highlight your experiences but, you are starting afresh in Canada (if you are) and you are open to learn and explore. I think those are things really helped me – I was always super keen and really wanting to establish I'm willing and able to start my legal career in Canada, no matter what experiences I have from abroad, and I think that worked in my favor. 

Saba: One thing I wanted to add really quickly, I know we are going to wrap up. The only reason I mentioned the soccer point is because Jaanam I saw in your bio that that’s something you are into. Isa, I apologize you don’t have an interests section in your bio, but I did look at yours too so just a testament to the fact that still at this point, even though you guys are obviously not candidates, we really do look for that stuff and your personality is of course a huge part of it. We want people that we want to work with, so thank you for mentioning that point. Like who you are is truly important. Sorry to jump in, but I really wanted to put that out there. 

Yaman: Thank you so much! I want to thank all of you guys. We are at time right now. Isa, thank you for being the first for a lot of questions. Saba, thank you for your valuable insights. Jaanam, thank you as well for discussing your experiences. I am also going to thank Ifra for helping me, she is from CMLA, and she is in the background doing a lot of work. Thank you everybody for joining us and have lovely evening. 

Saba: Thanks Everyone!

Isa: Thanks. 

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Our guests were kind enough to share their email addresses, should you wish to reach out with any questions:

 Isa Dookie:  isajdookie.law@gmail.com

Jaanam Mahboobani:  jaanam.mahboobani@gowlingwlg.com

Saba Samanian:  saba.samanian@nortonrosefulbright.com